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Myth and Cult - How atheists misunderstand religion

Posted by The Editor on Mon, Jan 26, 2009 @ 08:22 PM
 

Deep in a comment thread on Unqualified Reservations, Michael S. provides the best apoligia of traditional religion that I have ever read.  Years ago I stopped believing in the Christian God and left the church.  Had there been anyone of Michael's intellectual caliber still left in the Catholic church, perhaps things would have gone differently.  Below I have reproduced Michael's key comments from thread, so that others may read them easily:

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There are at least two components to any religion, namely myth and cult. Under the heading of myth are comprised all of the just-so stories of ancient or primitive peoples. An example is the Greek myth which explained the daily rising and setting of the sun as the passage of Apollo riding his fiery chariot across the sky.The Greeks became good astronomers and by the classical period had developed better ideas about the nature of the heavenly bodies than that myth implied. Nonetheless, they did not give up the cult of Apollo, which persisted right up until the suppression of paganism. Literal belief in the myth was not necessary to the cult. The myth could be understood as symbolism and poetry.

A case in point of the distinction between myth and cult is seen in the life of Cicero, a hard-headed politician and lawyer whose surviving writings indicate that he was a follower of the New Academy of Carneades, which held that certain knowledge was impossible, and that practical assumptions based on probability were as much as could be achieved. Yet this practical and sceptical man also prized his initiation into the mysteries of Eleusis, which he claimed was the best and most divine gift of Athens to the world. One cannot imagine that Cicero took the myth as literal truth, but he was an enthusiastic participant in the cult.

Because the Abrahamic religions are scriptural, and a substantial number of their believers insist on the literal truth of scripture, it is more difficult to distinguish myth and cult in them than it is in ancient religions. Nonetheless the distinction can still be made.

Consider the example of the prophet Daniel, who, as told in the apocryphal book Bel and the Dragon, acted as a sort of spiritual detective. Scattering ashes on the floor of the temple of Bel, he revealed that the offerings said to be eaten by the idol were actually removed by Bel's fraudulent priests; feeding an unpalatable meal to a 'dragon' worshipped by the Babylonians, he caused it to burst and die. This narrative is the antecedent of Black Sea's scenario in which a primitive's supposition that a little man must be talking inside the transistor radio is refuted by opening it.

When Dawkins and other proselytizing atheists point out the errors, inconsistencies, and crudities of the Bible, they hope to be the doughty Daniels of their own True Faith. But by showing that there is a great deal of myth in scripture, all they are doing is to fault the people of two or three millennia ago for not being aware of current scientific theory and for using the means available to them to describe natural phenomena.

Serious adherents of the cults of Judaism or Christianity are not at all disturbed by this news. They are already aware of it. The theory of evolution, to cite one example, does not per se disturb any Christian who is not a literalist. What disturbs him is the neo-Epicureanism that frequently accompanies it (and for which there is no more empirical basis than there is for the idea of intelligent design).

The ultimate vindication of the truth of Daniel's faith, we may recall, came after his exposure of Bel and the Dragon. It was then that his enemies caused him to be thrown into the lions' den. It is unfortunate that Dawkins, Hitchens, etc. have so far, in their attacks on fundamentalism/salvationism, chosen to face only a few malnourished alley cats. They need to withstand sharper and bigger claws and teeth before their testimony is credible. Although I'm not a Roman Catholic, my suggestion is that they be thrown to the Jesuits.

Some years ago I read a transcript of an interview of the great scientific cosmologist Stephen Hawking. I do not recall who conducted the interview. At its conclusion the interviewer asked Hawking, did he believe that the universe had a creator? Hawking said that he did not. Why? the interviewer asked. Hawking responded, "Because I find it more aesthetic." There spoke both an honest atheist and one with a much better philosophical footing than Dawkins and his ilk.

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Black Sea, I did not say that you exemplified the type of proselytizing atheist I meant. I said that you and Aaron Davies illustrated the problem such people face. They think their task is as simple as breaking open the transistor radio to show the Amazon tribesman there is no little man inside. In representing the belief of theists as based in ignorance, and proposing themselves as instructors having the knowledge to remedy that ignorance, they both misrepresent the basis of religious belief and condescend to the believer, while expressing an undue confidence in their own intellectual superiority.

Of course there are simple and unsophisticated believers who are literalists. They understand their religion according to their capacity, and it is unlikely they would understand science any better.
There seems to be no appreciation amongst atheists of the Dawkins type that organized religion has always had to contend with excessivley credulous believers, and in many cases has served to restrain superstition rather than to encourage it. Chesterton is supposed to have observed (though no one seems to be able to find the source) that when men no longer believe in God, they don't believe in nothing - they believe in anything.

The wisdom of this observation is seen in the recent popularity of accounts of flying saucers, alien abductions, and similar uncanny experiences. It is evident to anyone who is familiar with their history that people have been seeing strange apparitions since time immemorial. It is also evident that they always see these things in culturally appropriate ways. The pagans of classical antiquity saw the gods, nymphs, satyrs, centaurs, sylphs, and so forth. Christians saw angels, demons, the Blessed Virgin, the saints, etc. Mohammedans saw djinn, efreets, and the other marvels related in the Arabian Nights. People began to see flying saucers and little green men in the late 1940s - after they had been culturally conditioned for several decades by the work of H.G. Wells and the pulps published by Hugo Gernsback. Enthusiasts of the extraterrestrial commonly explain the experiences of past visionaries with angels, demons, etc. as being 'close encounters' with aliens. They would no doubt bristle with indignation if it were suggested to them that the aliens they thought they saw were in fact messengers from God or the Devil, djinn, or the elementals described by the abbé Montfaucon de Villars in his "Comte de Gabalis."

Such credulous folk, who believe in anything, really ought not to be fair game for Dawkins and crew. They will always be among us even if atheism becomes the state religion. Under the former Soviet Union there was a widespread literature devoted to supposed extraterrestrial visitations. Since the press in that country was under the complete control of the state, one can only conclude that the powers-that-were wished to encourage belief in these manifestations, as a means of undermining the Christianity they had failed to supplant amongst ordinary people with the bald and unconvincing narrative of their Marxist atheism.

Let me make my own point of view clear - it is that the only position tenable from a viewpoint of strict empiricism is that the existence or non-existence of God are equally un-disprovable. Pointing to one or another scriptural absurdity iluustrates only that the man who wrote it long ago failed to understand matters properly; pointing out that many people still believe that absurdity, in the face of evidence to the contrary, proves only that there are still many simple and unsophisticated people. On the other hand, all the arguments customarily advanced by religious believers, such as the argument by design, are such as to be convincing only to people who already believe.

Yet all these things being taken into consideration, two points remain. The first is anthropological: there is no society known to history in which there is not some sort of spiritual belief. This coincides with the ancient Christian doctrine that all people are inherently aware of God even if they have not the knowledge of the Gospel. Physical explanations of instinctive spirituality ("the God gene") are not persuasive, because they run afoul of the mind-body problem. One is left with the nagging suspicion that there might be something to the spiritual, though just what is the great question.

The second point is aesthetic. Arguably, the highest achievements of the human species have been motivated by that instinctive spirituality just mentioned. The great cathedrals, the precious heritage of religious art and music, are not only monuments to religious belief, but more persuasive testimonies to and arguments for faith than the disputations of theology. Have you ever read the story of the conversion of St. Vladimir, the founder of the Russian Orthodox Church? He was, as the account goes, a pagan prince of the line of Rurik; and an enthusiastic pagan, having built several temples. Yet he was not quite satisfied with his religion, and agreed to hear deputations of Muslims, Jews, and Christians each deliver their respective sales pitches. The presentations of the first two were rather arid, but the Christians (who had come from Byzantium) put on by far the best show, high mass with all the smells and bells, rich vestments, singing, the whole nine yards. Vladimir was convinced - any religion that was so beautiful had to be the right one (it also didn't hurt that it had the least restrictive dietary rules, and no ban on booze). Accordingly, Russia became Christian, and Vladimir a saint - all on the basis of his aesthetic judgment.

I suppose these anthropological and aesthetic reasons explain why many people remain culturally Christian despite an abundance of doubts and discontents. They aren't willing to dismiss the spiritual out of hand; they see more benefit than detriment accruing to society from religion in spite of their doubts (as did Jefferson and Franklin); and they find Christianity aesthetically appealing (as did St. Vladimir). They are therefore unwilling to discard it in favor of the barren and austere horizon offered by the crusading atheism of a Dawkins. For my part, I'll wait to see whether Dawkinsianity produces anything equivalent to Chartres, Handel's Messiah or Mozart's Requiem, the Pietà or the Sistine ceiling. When it does we may re-evaluate it to see if it offers anything worthwhile.

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Mr. Davies, I suspect that Ayn Rand's 'proof' of the non-existence of God is a mirror-image of the mediæval scholastic proofs of the existence of God; both are persuasive only to people who already believe. Also, is the omniscient, omnipotent Abrahamic God really "modern"? Deists like Lord Herbert of Cherbury were beginning to move away from that concept nearly four centuries ago. Newton and Locke followed in his footsteps. Washington, an outwardly observant Anglican but also a Freemason, always couched his utterances with regard to deity in terms more reminiscent of Masonic ritual than of the Anglican service. Yet such deists were not atheists of the Dawkinsian stripe. They believed the universe had its Great Architect and that his handiwork was made manifest in the order and symmetry of nature. They further believed that Christianity brought great benefits to society, and tried in some cases to 'reform' it in ways that eliminated those parts they considered superstitious and backward. Examples of these efforts are the Jefferson Bible and the Franklin/Dashwood Prayer Book. Are these not more 'modern' strains of belief than the caricature presented by Rand?

And has not Randism been almost from the start yet another illustration of the Chestertonian axiom? Maybe it is not quite as outlandish as flying saucers but it is assuredly a cult of the type that substitutes itself for more conventional religion. Ayn Rand herself was almost the model of the autocratic prophet, excommunicating from the fellowship of the faithful any who dared (however meekly) to question her pronouncements. In this respect she belongs amongst the ranks of such charlatans as Freud, Jung, Crowley, or Hubbard.

As for Randy's observation about what it means to be an atheist, I suspect it means different things to each atheist in the same way that being a Jew or a Christian means differing things to each Jew or each Christian. We can only evaluate the belief of such people based on their own testimony. But what we must note is that many of these disputants come in an odd way to resemble all they deplore about their adversaries. We need only contemplate the example of Christopher Hitchens, who is every bit as obnoxious in his own way as Pat Robertson is, or the late Jerry Falwell was, in theirs respectively. The fervency of the undoubting atheist is no less troubling than the fervency of the undoubting Christian, Muslim, etc.; both have been, and still are, rationales for the most appalling cruelties.

COMMENTS

I looked and all I saw was blah blah blah blah... I am still not sure if you support religion or not, much less figuring out which was your writing and that of others...

posted @ Monday, January 26, 2009 9:26 PM by wt


God is in the wetware. Like blue eyes, red hair, or a fondness for the same sex, its a function of the brain. And just like every other mutation, the lack of a spirituality center in the brain is simply a genetic mutation that 7-8% of us are born too... 
 
I have never felt the spirit, no matter how many times I went to church and watched others embrace it. In fact, the opposite, I felt nothing at all. After 49 years of trying to "get it", I realize now that its not environmental. And your point about every civilization having had spritual expression, only serves to amplify my belief that its all in the wetware. For as long as there have been believers, there have been apostates. I prefer to think of us as evolutionary mutations advancing the species. 
 
When I was young and seeking I wanted to believe and feel faith flow to my heart. But to be true to thyself is to admit I had no feeling of faith at all. Nada. Zip. Totally do not get it? Can't even imagine what it must feel like for those that do... 
 
As a result I do not find my lack of faith a "barren and austere horizon" as people of faith would surely believe. Given my history, and accomplishments, I would argue that there is more to be had without a God, than with it. I find it strange that anyone would need to call upon faith to endure the pain of life. I have seen death, lost family to it, know of personal tragedy, and yet through it all have never felt a need to call on faith, or blame a God. 
 
I know that whatever life we have allotted, we must use it fully, for if there is a heaven, then this is it. 
 
I find it aesthetically pleasing that I have the ability to grasp science, and clearly see the universe as it is, without need of spiritual explanation. Truth lies in reason alone, and the path of enlightenment is reached through a continual process of questioning, testing, and reassessing our theories as we evolve. Evolution teaches that mutation advances the species. I would suggest the 8% of us that lack faith, actually are better at grasping the universe as it really is, rather than as we would like it to be. 
 
There is much out there in the universe to be discovered, and nothing new at all in the books of faith. For me that is a bright and vibrant truth, and one that sustains me... 

posted @ Monday, January 26, 2009 9:34 PM by Atheist


No cathedral can ever be as beautiful as the method by which we advance our intellect and understanding of our ourselves, our planet and the universe.

posted @ Monday, January 26, 2009 11:52 PM by orlando


I've gone back and forth on the atheism issue many times in my life. Not to say I was ever religious, just agnostic. 
 
This was a great pseudo article thing that really opened my eyes to how intelligent theists involved in organized religions see things, which I have always wondered about. Though I have to say that there are far more atheists then there are people who will admit they are atheist. Especially in the upper crust of society, where it can really do nothing but hurt your career/social standing. 
 
As it stands of late though I lean towards some kind of god situation because I have never heard any convincing atheist arguments that adequately explain consciousness. What I mean is the me that I control and whose feelings I feel that exists behind my eyes. A perfect clone of me wouldn't have the same 'me' feeling his feelings and controlling his actions. Regardless of whether or not they would behave identically, the clone would still be a different me than I am. 
 
Anyway, enough rambling, this was a great article and I would love to hear more about how honest intelligent and educated theists in organized religions see the world.

posted @ Tuesday, January 27, 2009 12:07 AM by ham


You don't seem to actually have read anything Dawkins has written, considering how crudely you caricature his opinions.

posted @ Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:58 PM by Martin


This argument misses 2 major points. 
 
1) I am completely fine with the "myth". My problem with religion lies in that the line between "myth" and "cult" is intentionally blurred by religious officials. Modern Christianity often preaches that everything in the Bible is fact which often directly contradicts logic and empirical evidence. Whose job is it to determine what is "myth"? 
 
I would also love to hear the posters stance on Biblical passages that are promote anti-homosexuality, birth-control, and overall intolerance. 
 
----------- 
 
2) The poster makes this quote: 
"it is that the only position tenable from a viewpoint of strict empiricism is that the existence or non-existence of God are equally un-disprovable". 
This is a fallacious argument. If there is no empircal evidenice to support the existence of something it defies logic and reason to believe in it exists. There is no need to prove the opposite viewpoint. 
 
To use the famous example, this is like me telling you there there is an invisible pink unicorn behind you and asking you to prove me wrong. The correct stance is that the pink unicorn should not be believed in until there is empirical fact that it exists. 
 
------- 
 
Ultimately I identify myself as a Libertarian/Unitarian Humanist Atheist. 
 
Libertarian/Unitarian - Because I believe that all people have a right to believe in what makes them happy as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others.  
 
Humanist/Atheist - Because I don't believe in a "conscious being", but I am open to any religion that conforms to logic and reason.

posted @ Tuesday, January 27, 2009 4:09 PM by Colin


For those who espouse the worship of the goddess reason, and honour her the invisible hands of her holy spirit, evolution - let me talk the language of your liturgy - logic.  
 
Whence comes 'reason', 'logic', the invisible hand of 'evolution'? 
 
The EAAN (evolutionary argument against naturalism) effectively uses the theory of evolution against a naturalistic metaphysics.  
 
Whence comes anything at all?  
 
Many thought matter eternal - observation disproves this.  
 
Big Bang cosmology overwhelmingly supports a creation ex nihilo. 
 
Design, life, the anthropic or goldilocks principle - 
 
The moral argument - whence comes objective moral values? - 
 
How to historically account for the rise of Christianity? 
 
Encounters with the risen Jesus? Life changing, civilisation creating encounters?  
 
All of these questions are honestly best answered by Christian Theism - the worldview within which science arose, and within which and because of which we have all our ideas of civil government and law, including rights talk. 
 
Atheism has not provided any good reason to reject either classical theism or the Christian revelation. Quite the contrary the twentieth century's most famous atheist is now a theist Antony Flew. 
 
Atheist secular humanism bears all the signs of intellectual exhaustion - low church atheist secularists cannot even stir themselves to reproduce. See declining fertility rates in developed world.  
 
Monotheism seems to give on an evolutionary advantage against modernity. 
 
I've looked and looked for good reasons to deny the Christian faith, but I have to be honest with myself. They don't exist. 
 
The Pope and St Paul(originally a murderer of Christians) are right - hope is the fruit of faith and the SUBSTANCE of things unseen. We can bring the substance of eternal life into our daily lives - it affects every action knowing we are storing up things in 'heaven' knowing this is a prelude, but a utterly serious prelude. 
 
Sociologically there is no other way to unity, there is no other way forward. It can't be built on the nihilism of Dawkins. 
 
Though there are many who use their natural powers (we're all created in the image of God) to their fullest potential and so can get by (or are carried through) the sourdough of ordinary existence. But we must not labour to delude ourselves how likely it would be to base a civilisation on this kind of unbroken good fortune, (or exemplary will aided by a good conscience or exemplary will restricted in its evil by circumstance.) 
 
The Word - the logos (reason and meaning) became flesh and dwelt among us. The Gospels are pretty close to the facts in the genre of biography.  
 
If we exclude methodological atheism from an historical scrutiny of the ancient Greek manuscripts we call the New Testament and test them with all the conceptual tools of historical science we shouldn't be surprised to come away well disposed to Jesus. 
 
 
Anyway have a look for yourself. 
 
In the Bible 365 times its written words 'do not be afraid'. 
 

posted @ Thursday, January 29, 2009 5:21 AM by martin s


Good read. I'm pleased with the fact that his arguments are generally well formed, with the exception of the ad homonym attacks (e.g. implications that Dawkins is insane, austere, etc, though "Dawkinsanity" is a decent joke it doesn't help him fight the good fight against the stereotype that religious people don't know what honest intellectual debate means). 
 
A few thoughts: 
 
He seems to imply that Christianity is at odds with Epicureanism. That's obvious enough to not need an argument, but he doesn't offer any arguments against Epicureanism, nor for the element in Christianity with which it is opposed. 
 
He states that people credulous enough to be UFO believers shouldn't count as a fair target of Dawkins because the church doesn't support them either. The truth is that they are a fair target for Dawkins because Dawkins makes a very different argument against them than the church does. Such people believe without evidence, exactly something that religion supports and atheists condemn. That's the basis of the whole argument as atheists see it. 
 
As for how religious people see it, this one at least claims that there is evidence for religion in general, and Christianity in particular. 
 
First, the "fact" that every society has had an element of spirituality does not imply that spiritual beliefs are correct. Religion offers an evolutionary advantage, just like rape. Both have always happened, but that doesn't make either right. As for the "the majority must be correct" angle (which I don't think he appeals to here), I think we are all well beyond that. 
 
The second argument is almost embarrassing. He claims that the greatest human achievements have been motivated by spirituality. Even without arguing that projects like the pyramids at Giza were due to narcissism rather than spirituality; I would say that landing a man on the moon is undeniably a greater achievement than almost anything else. More generally, list should probably contain the creation of mathematics, language, and science. None of these are motivated by spirituality, all are more impressive than a good song or painting. 
 
A truly beautiful counterargument is the story of Easter Island. The people there made massive and resource intensive stone statues of their religious symbols. The widely held understanding is that the motivation was that the separate tribal groups were in competition with each other to build impressive statues. The resource drain caused the society to collapse. 
 
Also, its insanely ironic that the same essay that bashes Epicureanism argues honestly that we should choose a religion based quite literally on which puts on the best show (the St. Vladimir story). 
 
On a more personal but unrelated note, I have never felt as moved as I did when I first saw the Saturn V rocket that was built to take people to the moon. If you are ever in Florida, check it out.

posted @ Saturday, February 07, 2009 10:58 PM by John


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