COMMENTS
I looked and all I saw was blah blah blah blah... I am still not sure if you support religion or not, much less figuring out which was your writing and that of others...
God is in the wetware. Like blue eyes, red hair, or a fondness for the same sex, its a function of the brain. And just like every other mutation, the lack of a spirituality center in the brain is simply a genetic mutation that 7-8% of us are born too...
I have never felt the spirit, no matter how many times I went to church and watched others embrace it. In fact, the opposite, I felt nothing at all. After 49 years of trying to "get it", I realize now that its not environmental. And your point about every civilization having had spritual expression, only serves to amplify my belief that its all in the wetware. For as long as there have been believers, there have been apostates. I prefer to think of us as evolutionary mutations advancing the species.
When I was young and seeking I wanted to believe and feel faith flow to my heart. But to be true to thyself is to admit I had no feeling of faith at all. Nada. Zip. Totally do not get it? Can't even imagine what it must feel like for those that do...
As a result I do not find my lack of faith a "barren and austere horizon" as people of faith would surely believe. Given my history, and accomplishments, I would argue that there is more to be had without a God, than with it. I find it strange that anyone would need to call upon faith to endure the pain of life. I have seen death, lost family to it, know of personal tragedy, and yet through it all have never felt a need to call on faith, or blame a God.
I know that whatever life we have allotted, we must use it fully, for if there is a heaven, then this is it.
I find it aesthetically pleasing that I have the ability to grasp science, and clearly see the universe as it is, without need of spiritual explanation. Truth lies in reason alone, and the path of enlightenment is reached through a continual process of questioning, testing, and reassessing our theories as we evolve. Evolution teaches that mutation advances the species. I would suggest the 8% of us that lack faith, actually are better at grasping the universe as it really is, rather than as we would like it to be.
There is much out there in the universe to be discovered, and nothing new at all in the books of faith. For me that is a bright and vibrant truth, and one that sustains me...
No cathedral can ever be as beautiful as the method by which we advance our intellect and understanding of our ourselves, our planet and the universe.
I've gone back and forth on the atheism issue many times in my life. Not to say I was ever religious, just agnostic.
This was a great pseudo article thing that really opened my eyes to how intelligent theists involved in organized religions see things, which I have always wondered about. Though I have to say that there are far more atheists then there are people who will admit they are atheist. Especially in the upper crust of society, where it can really do nothing but hurt your career/social standing.
As it stands of late though I lean towards some kind of god situation because I have never heard any convincing atheist arguments that adequately explain consciousness. What I mean is the me that I control and whose feelings I feel that exists behind my eyes. A perfect clone of me wouldn't have the same 'me' feeling his feelings and controlling his actions. Regardless of whether or not they would behave identically, the clone would still be a different me than I am.
Anyway, enough rambling, this was a great article and I would love to hear more about how honest intelligent and educated theists in organized religions see the world.
You don't seem to actually have read anything Dawkins has written, considering how crudely you caricature his opinions.
This argument misses 2 major points.
1) I am completely fine with the "myth". My problem with religion lies in that the line between "myth" and "cult" is intentionally blurred by religious officials. Modern Christianity often preaches that everything in the Bible is fact which often directly contradicts logic and empirical evidence. Whose job is it to determine what is "myth"?
I would also love to hear the posters stance on Biblical passages that are promote anti-homosexuality, birth-control, and overall intolerance.
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2) The poster makes this quote:
"it is that the only position tenable from a viewpoint of strict empiricism is that the existence or non-existence of God are equally un-disprovable".
This is a fallacious argument. If there is no empircal evidenice to support the existence of something it defies logic and reason to believe in it exists. There is no need to prove the opposite viewpoint.
To use the famous example, this is like me telling you there there is an invisible pink unicorn behind you and asking you to prove me wrong. The correct stance is that the pink unicorn should not be believed in until there is empirical fact that it exists.
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Ultimately I identify myself as a Libertarian/Unitarian Humanist Atheist.
Libertarian/Unitarian - Because I believe that all people have a right to believe in what makes them happy as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others.
Humanist/Atheist - Because I don't believe in a "conscious being", but I am open to any religion that conforms to logic and reason.
For those who espouse the worship of the goddess reason, and honour her the invisible hands of her holy spirit, evolution - let me talk the language of your liturgy - logic.
Whence comes 'reason', 'logic', the invisible hand of 'evolution'?
The EAAN (evolutionary argument against naturalism) effectively uses the theory of evolution against a naturalistic metaphysics.
Whence comes anything at all?
Many thought matter eternal - observation disproves this.
Big Bang cosmology overwhelmingly supports a creation ex nihilo.
Design, life, the anthropic or goldilocks principle -
The moral argument - whence comes objective moral values? -
How to historically account for the rise of Christianity?
Encounters with the risen Jesus? Life changing, civilisation creating encounters?
All of these questions are honestly best answered by Christian Theism - the worldview within which science arose, and within which and because of which we have all our ideas of civil government and law, including rights talk.
Atheism has not provided any good reason to reject either classical theism or the Christian revelation. Quite the contrary the twentieth century's most famous atheist is now a theist Antony Flew.
Atheist secular humanism bears all the signs of intellectual exhaustion - low church atheist secularists cannot even stir themselves to reproduce. See declining fertility rates in developed world.
Monotheism seems to give on an evolutionary advantage against modernity.
I've looked and looked for good reasons to deny the Christian faith, but I have to be honest with myself. They don't exist.
The Pope and St Paul(originally a murderer of Christians) are right - hope is the fruit of faith and the SUBSTANCE of things unseen. We can bring the substance of eternal life into our daily lives - it affects every action knowing we are storing up things in 'heaven' knowing this is a prelude, but a utterly serious prelude.
Sociologically there is no other way to unity, there is no other way forward. It can't be built on the nihilism of Dawkins.
Though there are many who use their natural powers (we're all created in the image of God) to their fullest potential and so can get by (or are carried through) the sourdough of ordinary existence. But we must not labour to delude ourselves how likely it would be to base a civilisation on this kind of unbroken good fortune, (or exemplary will aided by a good conscience or exemplary will restricted in its evil by circumstance.)
The Word - the logos (reason and meaning) became flesh and dwelt among us. The Gospels are pretty close to the facts in the genre of biography.
If we exclude methodological atheism from an historical scrutiny of the ancient Greek manuscripts we call the New Testament and test them with all the conceptual tools of historical science we shouldn't be surprised to come away well disposed to Jesus.
Anyway have a look for yourself.
In the Bible 365 times its written words 'do not be afraid'.
Good read. I'm pleased with the fact that his arguments are generally well formed, with the exception of the ad homonym attacks (e.g. implications that Dawkins is insane, austere, etc, though "Dawkinsanity" is a decent joke it doesn't help him fight the good fight against the stereotype that religious people don't know what honest intellectual debate means).
A few thoughts:
He seems to imply that Christianity is at odds with Epicureanism. That's obvious enough to not need an argument, but he doesn't offer any arguments against Epicureanism, nor for the element in Christianity with which it is opposed.
He states that people credulous enough to be UFO believers shouldn't count as a fair target of Dawkins because the church doesn't support them either. The truth is that they are a fair target for Dawkins because Dawkins makes a very different argument against them than the church does. Such people believe without evidence, exactly something that religion supports and atheists condemn. That's the basis of the whole argument as atheists see it.
As for how religious people see it, this one at least claims that there is evidence for religion in general, and Christianity in particular.
First, the "fact" that every society has had an element of spirituality does not imply that spiritual beliefs are correct. Religion offers an evolutionary advantage, just like rape. Both have always happened, but that doesn't make either right. As for the "the majority must be correct" angle (which I don't think he appeals to here), I think we are all well beyond that.
The second argument is almost embarrassing. He claims that the greatest human achievements have been motivated by spirituality. Even without arguing that projects like the pyramids at Giza were due to narcissism rather than spirituality; I would say that landing a man on the moon is undeniably a greater achievement than almost anything else. More generally, list should probably contain the creation of mathematics, language, and science. None of these are motivated by spirituality, all are more impressive than a good song or painting.
A truly beautiful counterargument is the story of Easter Island. The people there made massive and resource intensive stone statues of their religious symbols. The widely held understanding is that the motivation was that the separate tribal groups were in competition with each other to build impressive statues. The resource drain caused the society to collapse.
Also, its insanely ironic that the same essay that bashes Epicureanism argues honestly that we should choose a religion based quite literally on which puts on the best show (the St. Vladimir story).
On a more personal but unrelated note, I have never felt as moved as I did when I first saw the Saturn V rocket that was built to take people to the moon. If you are ever in Florida, check it out.